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Teleconference Transcript

Transcript of NCSET teleconference call held on January 24, 2001


Preparing Youth with Disabilities for Participation in Postsecondary Education and Lifelong Learning

presented by:

Robert A. Stodden, Ph.D., Director and Professor
Center on Disability Studies
National Center for the Study of Postsecondary Educational Supports
University of Hawaii at Manoa



DR. JOHNSON: I am David Johnson from the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis where I direct the newly established National Center on Secondary Education and Transition (NCSET). We are focused around a topic today that is very important to the national center and to Bob and his research and training center at the University of Hawaii, which assists in preparing youth with disabilities for participation in postsecondary education and lifelong learning. These monthly teleconferences are now between NCSET and the National Transitional Alliance, which will conclude this year as an entity. We'll continue these with the National Center on a monthly basis, offering topics which we feel are of national importance and of interest to policy makers, teachers, professionals, and others in the field. You can, I think, look forward to some important topics being presented. I want to touch base with you for a second about the new national center so you can get a brief understanding of who we are. We are funded at the University of Minnesota to headquarter this center. It began November 1, 2000. This is the center which will carry on work to improve secondary education and the involvement of kids at middle school and high school levels as well as to focus on their transition to postsecondary education.

In February we are going to devote the national teleconference to questions and an overview about the center and the services it provides, as well as information about the web site. We are looking for feedback about the site and ways that we can better assist people.

I want to mention the National Center in terms of its partnership and why Bob is on the line. We really have five additional partners in this National Center. One is the National Center on the Study of Postsecondary Education Support at the University of Hawaii, the organization with which Bob is associated. We have an organization called Transcen, Inc. out of Rockville, MD, that is a provider program on employment and training issues for youth with disabilities. We have the national parent organization, Pacer Center, that works with a variety of family and parental issues. We are working with the National Association of State Directors of Special Education for our connection to the state directors. This organization helps us to stay in contact with and to assist in bringing to the front issues dealing with special education. We are working with the Institute for Educational Leadership and their Center for Workforce Development, which is a general education workforce policies oriented group that we are working with on a national level. We try to think about the best possible way of operating and getting kids involved in whatever is happening with labor and educational programming.

Again, we are going to devote the whole next teleconference to this topic. We will be sending around a number of marketing announcements so you can participate.

All right, Bob, instead of going through any litany myself, maybe you should outline what you want to talk about and go ahead and do that. And I remind people, if you are on a speaker phone, please put it on mute while Bob talks and then we will go into question and answer period.

DR. STODDEN: Sounds good. Thanks, David, and welcome on board, everybody. It's good morning out here. Many of you are already in the afternoon.

What I am going to do are four things. Some of you have heard this before since obviously we are involved with several of you in various kinds of projects and studies. I will spend a couple of minutes talking about the center and ways that you can get more information since I'm going to be talking fairly generally given the time. First, a little background on the issues and problems in terms of research confronting this area looking at postsecondary education and post-education support provision. Then, briefly an overview about some of the findings from two national studies that were conducted last year. I'll conclude with a discussion of the framework of current research that's going on and a few comments about an institute that's coming up in March where we will be looking at the implications of this research for secondary educators and transition personnel at the secondary school level.

We'll get started. This center, the National Center for the Study of Post-Secondary Educational Supports was funded a little over two years ago. It comes out of the employment and rehab. Sector, a little more than the education sector. So, our funding agent is very interested in employment outcomes as the primary outcome of our work and the ultimate outcome being an improved quality of life for persons with disabilities. So I think that probably fits with most of what you do in one way or another.

This center is also a partnership project with the University of Minnesota, which David is involved in. Children's Hospital, U. Mass Boston, Bill Cunnin, is involved as a site; and Virginia Commonwealth University, Paul Waymen is also involved. There are a number of collaborating sites around the country.

The center is currently in what we are calling Phase II of strategic program or plan of research. The first phase focused on getting a picture of the landscape in this area. We did a number of things. One was a real extensive literature review, a review of existing projects, and data that had been collected in the past. And a lot of that stuff was annotated and put up on a searchable website, that I will give you in a minute, and which is becoming an excellent library for people who are writing proposals, papers, and looking for best practice in this area.

I want Tom to quickly touch on the types of studies that we did in Phase I, because I will be talking about two of those. The idea was to paint a picture of the landscape through the literature and through projects involving people with disabilities, particularly students in postsecondary education and students that had completed. There was a national focus group project that involved 10 sites around the country participated in and it generated a tremendous amount of consumer-based information about the issues and needs in postsecondary education for students with disabilities.

We did a national survey of disabilities support providers. This survey looked at the current status of support provisions. I will talk a little bit about that. There were a number of case studies that were done. The idea was to try to get several different perspectives about the landscape and what our current status is in terms of support provision.

All of that information was completed about a year ago. I am going to give you a website because there are numerous reports. More than 20 papers are posted. Many are also published and will be coming out in various journals during the next year. All of this information is accessible on the web site as well as the annotated library that you can go to. It's a searchable library based on key words.

The web site is http://www.rrtc.hawaii.edu. There are several sections listed, for example one area is entitled products, reports, etc. There are a number of other things to access as well.

Now, to quickly give a little background on this area. Postsecondary education for people with disabilities is something that hasn't received a lot of attention at the federal level along with the local education agencies and with institutions of higher education. During the last 10 years since the ADA was passed, there has been a little more recognition that postsecondary education and lifelong learning are major pathways to career advancement. They offer an improved quality of life and high-end employment for people, and particularly people with disabilities. Some of that has been driven by a very good economy in the United States during the last 10 years. There are increased opportunities for everyone, including people with disabilities.

One of the missions of the RRTC is to take a look at postsecondary education and lifelong learning as a critical pathway to career advancement and an improved quality of life for all people including people with disabilities. Our goal is to have people in lower ed., particularly those who are preparing students with disabilities, understand that lifelong learning should be recognized as an expectation rather than being the immediate low-end employment opportunities typical expectation of students exiting lower ed.

The other driving force behind this movement is, as most of you are familiar with, IDEA-97. There's a focus on high standards, high expectations, students with disabilities participating, general education curriculum, and expectations that students with disabilities will achieve high standards in lower education. Obviously those types of standards are typically required in postsecondary education, even though there's a wide range of postsecondary lifelong learning opportunities available.

Given those two driving forces, there has been an emergence of information in this area, a good portion of which we are contributing to along with a number of other projects.

Based on that, I'll give a little background supporting this movement. Then I will talk about some of the data that we have collected and the implications.

One of the things supporting the value of postsecondary education for everybody, but particularly persons with disabilities, is labor force participation rates. We have data on labor force participation rates for non-disabled persons. That data indicates that the labor force participation for non-disabled people is about 75 percent for those without a high school diploma, about 85 percent with a diploma, and 88 percent with some postsecondary education, at least a minimum of a year, and it's around 90 percent for those persons without disabilities who have four years of college. Comparatively, then, looking at people with disabilities there are still very dismal figures given all the energy and effort put into this over the years. Labor force participation rates for persons with disabilities is about 16 percent without a high school diploma. It's more like 30 percent with a high school diploma and then increases to 45 percent with some postsecondary education. You show a minimum one-year participation. The rate is approximately 50 percent for persons with disabilities for four years of college. They are atrocious figures.

Let's take a look quickly, then, given those figures are outcome figures, to looking at postsecondary education attendance and the rates of attendance. The rate of attendance for students with disabilities over the past 10 years has almost doubled. This is looking at two years out. It includes low-tech centers and community colleges. That rate is approximately 19 percent, so almost a quarter of students with disabilities attend postsecondary types of activities, educational activities, and that's two years out of high school. That figure has almost doubled since 1990. For non-disabled students, the figure is almost 60 percent. You are looking at a real discrepancy in terms of participation in postsecondary education between people with disabilities and those who are non-disabled.

Some of the reasons for this are based on what is happening in postsecondary education. I would say that it is due to the receptivity of the postsecondary educational environment for students with disabilities.

Let's talk about the data we have been collecting over the last couple of years, one set of findings shows that disability supports and services in postsecondary education vary widely from campus to campus, from state to state, from type of campus, to looking at two-year versus four-year, public versus private, campuses that are well-funded versus our states that fund higher ed. on a much higher level than other states, you can notice the variation in supports. I think one of the things we can't say to people in secondary school and students with disabilities and their family members is that you are going to find a level of quality of service and support in higher ed. It varies much more extensively than supports under IDEA and lower ed.

This is a concern that needs to be addressed. There are campuses that provide a very nice array of supports and are very highly involved in this all the way to campuses where a person is named on paper as a disability support coordinator, but it actually is not part of their job description. Knowing that, there's a need to begin to differentiate, take a look at really helping parents and secondary school counselors, special ed. teachers, and transition personnel to understand these differences, and ways to work with and advise parents and students when thinking about postsecondary education.

Another issue that's become evident is that supports at the postsecondary level are not well integrated programmatically with instruction. In fact, they typically have nothing to do with instruction. Postsecondary education support offices are distinctly separate from academic offices typically, and the relationship between supports, services, faculty, and their instruction, the linkage is not there in most cases. It's evident to us that there is a need to look at ways to integrate the provision of supports, instruction, and programs that students are in.

One of the things that we have noticed in looking at support offices is that there tends to be a focus on some standard activities advocacy, provision of information, many of these offices provide testing accommodations. There seems to be, across campuses in the country, a menu of things that are going to be available. If a student needs something beyond the menu, then it becomes very problematic. The ability of support offices to individualize, to be flexible, to be immediate in response. Numbers of things that students with disabilities felt were extremely important to them were difficult to find. Our offices are not structured to do that.

One major problem is that students have low expectations in postsecondary education. As they transition to employment these expectations remain low. This is particularly true in postsecondary education where the faculty expectations are typically elevated, and their perceptions or their lack of knowledge about students with disabilities--they automatically assume that students with disabilities can't meet those expectations. This is an overall awareness issue on many campuses and it's a faculty training issue, and an information issue that many faculty in postsecondary education do not receive adequate training as teachers and they typically have very little experience or training with people with disabilities.

Another issue for students with disabilities is that there are very few role models in secondary or postsecondary schools to encourage students to advance to the university level. The National Science Foundation is funding a series of projects that focus on developing role models using people with disabilities who are in the professions, specifically science and math, who can entice students with disabilities in secondary and postsecondary schools and serve as role models for the students. There's quite a bit of work happening on that right now.

A major issue that we have encountered, and two or three studies are now examining in depth, is that students with disabilities coming out of secondary schools are not prepared to advocate for themselves in postsecondary school. There's been a number of self-projects throughout the years, but it appears that most of these projects did not really or do not really focus on what students need once they leave postsecondary school, the skills and knowledge that they need and the things they need to do. We have started to clarify that students with disabilities coming out of secondary school need. First they need to have an understanding of their disability. They need to have some sense of what their strengths and weaknesses are, what their limitations are. Secondly, they need to know what supports or services will assist them to address those needs. If they have a limitation, then what is the support or series of supports is that students need to have in place to be successful. Thirdly, they need to be able to describe those two things in the context of a person in postsecondary education. If it's a chemistry instructor or a disability support coordinator, they need to be able to describe their disability and their support needs given to this individual and then advocate for those supports or services.

We are finding that as kids transition out of postsecondary education into employment, the same skills that are required there. It's just a different context. When sitting down with an employer, particularly in a professional area, it's critical that you can explain your disability very clearly to that individual, what your needs are to be accommodated for that disability and how that will allow you to perform the job. Without being able to do that, it's very difficult for people with disabilities to enter the profession for lots of other reasons also.

This is something I think that needs a great deal of work. Basically, when students come into postsecondary education, they are on their own in terms of advocating unless their parents advocate for them. There's a substantial amount of impetus to prepare kids with disabilities to be self-advocates in the context that I just discussed. There's a real need for that to happen. One way to look at it is they need to be their own case managers, because people aren't available, once they enter those environments, who will pull all this together and take it to each of the individuals who might interact with these students.

Another area I'll mention is that supports in postsecondary education are not individualized. The word "individualization" as you find it in lower ed. is not apparent to people in postsecondary education, and typically services and supports are not structured to be individualized.

I mentioned before, there's typically very little case management related services and other supports. Most students with disabilities have a range of help needs, human service needs, economic needs, transition needs, as well as educational support needs. Typically at the postsecondary level there is no one to put all this together or to manage the needs, and this is problematic. One, the person's life as a student in postsecondary education is just trying to deal with a minimal course load. They rarely have a life outside of their classes, the full student experience. We know that most students with disabilities are not able to take a full load and survive given all the other things they need to manage. Most students with disabilities take almost twice as long to go through postsecondary school as other students.

Other things I will mention really quickly--the supports and accommodations are usually not linked to the course of study and they are not linked well to the faculty member; there are several faculty providing instruction. Also, faculty are typically not focused on the verse learning styles. Typically, faculty in postsecondary education are not trained as teachers; they are trained in the content area. As a result, the idea that they would alter their instruction or look for many diverse ways to teach something to a student is very foreign to many faculty members.

Also, this time it's unclear how many students with disabilities choose not to self-identify. There could be a high number. We are trying to get students with mental health needs. We want to find out how many of those students self-identify, because this appears to be a population that chooses very aggressively not to identify. There is interest in trying to get a handle on what this population is and maybe other ways to support their needs.

The University of Hawaii is a really diverse campus in terms of people with different cultures, English as a second language, and a diverse population of international students. On this campus there is a large student support office, where the students and faculty learning and support office for all students is housed. In this office the primary focus is on cultural differences, language differences, and learning needs. One model that we have been looking at is integrating disability supports into a generic support office on campus. This facility would have the same kinds of supports available to any student in need. It would get around this whole barrier of self-identifying. There is a need for more research on this subject.

In terms of outcomes in postsecondary ed., obviously much higher numbers of students with disabilities drop out than students who are non-disabled. They typically drop out after the first year. They have a year which is a bad experience, having to drop classes, numbers of other things, and then that results in dropping out of school.

For those students who finish postsecondary school, as I mentioned before, it takes them significantly longer to complete than non-disabled students. Then I mentioned at least 80 percent of the students with disabilities in postsecondary settings require some sort of coordinated case management, either conducted as a self-case management strategy or with assistance from a private agency. This appears to be critical for students to keep up with other students.

Okay. Let me summarize. Given the findings--and these are global findings we have been talking about--we framed our Phase II research agenda in four areas. The first area is looking at preparation for postsecondary. There's obviously countless needs for things such as transition coordinators, secondary teachers, and special educators. They could tune into and help prepare kids for the transition into postsecondary education.

The second area is looking at what our focus has been up to this point. Our focus has been to look at the effectiveness of support provision during the postsecondary years to address many of those barriers.

The third area that we are looking at is the transition of support from postsecondary education to high end employment settings. There has been little research done on this subject and little known about it. We need to find out if there are supports that kids have gotten used to in lower ed., and then again in postsecondary ed., and how those supports helped them to transition into high-end employment and during the course of their lives.

The fourth area is the management and coordination when kids transition into postsecondary ed., and as they transition into high-end employment. What services did these individuals receive that helped them to be successful? We need ways to pull this information together.

Just to close, one of the things that we are doing with the NCSET in Minnesota is beginning a series of capacity building institutes. The first one of these will focus on what kids need to learn in secondary school and what secondary school educators and transition specialists need to know. We will also focus on the implications of postsecondary education environments. The first one of those institutes will be held in Honolulu during the first week in March aligned with the Pacific Rim conference. You are all invited. I will end there.

DR. JOHNSON: Bob, I want to thank you for taking your time to do this presentation. We can open it to questions now. Again, please indicate your name and where you are from as you ask the question. Any takers?

DR. HEGENAUER: Bob, this is Judy.

DR. STODDEN: Yeah. Hi, Judy.

DR. HEGENAUER: It seems to me that the best practices I've seen at a local level have to do with whether or not there is a partnership between those secondary folks and the ADA coordinator, the disabled students services coordinator, whoever that person is. I know no one wants to take the first step to get that started. I am wondering if you've seen some really successful linkages between those two institutions?

DR. STODDEN: Yeah, there are projects around the country, particularly with community colleges, that have partnerships set up where the disability support office at the two-year school works very closely with transition specialists, typically in the local high schools. They do simple things like share information and share files, provide information to the high school on what the requirements are.

DR. HEGENAUER: Great.

DR. STODDEN: For entrance and also cost requirements. Kids in high school make visits to the postsecondary school campus and get a chance to look at programs and meet faculty and other support personnel. Those kinds of things are for kids to be successful.

The other thing you tend to see if that's not in place is parents who go above and beyond in searching for a postsecondary school program, actually making those contacts for their children and doing a lot of those things themselves. We have a student at UH this year who is a junior now. His mother is his full-time assistant doing case management, communication, linkage, and coordination for him so that all his supports click every day as he goes to school and gets home.

DR. HEGENAUER: Wow.

DR. STODDEN: This is a critical need. There are some projects out there, though. We just started working with Peg Lamb, up in Michigan. She has a really nice project in that area where the local school district has a really tight partnership with the local community college system. They are demonstrating some of those things in an effective way.

DR. HEGENAUER: Is it always on a local level, or is there any state or federal entity that could promote those kinds of linkages?

DR. STODDEN: Yeah. Well, you know, what IDEA says, I think.

DR. HEGENAUER: Right.

DR. STODDEN: I have not noticed in any states any specific guidance in their state regulations related to IDEA. Most of it tends to be places where the community college is truly interested in a diverse student body.

DR. HEGENAUER: Right.

DR. STODDEN: Typically they need it for fiscal reasons. There are some campuses in California that are really focused on kids with disabilities as well as a wide range of other kinds of diverse needs, so they have well-developed services and recruit students. They establish many of these linkages with the local school districts.

DR. JOHNSON: Other questions for Bob?

MS. LAURIA: Yeah, this is Nancy Lauria from New York. How are you, Bob?

DR. STODDEN: Hi. Good.

MS. LAURIA: Listen, since 1985, we have had a series of postsecondary consortia in New York State. It's made up of two-year and four-year independent and public postsecondary institutions, the disabled students services coordinator, our transition coordinators who we have on a regional level, voc. rehab. counselors, and other interested people. They meet on a regular basis to look at issues, concerns, and come up with plans. They go out into schools and do technical assistance and training. They have college fairs and college information sessions for parents, teachers and kids. This event happens all over New York State. Like I said, the first one started in '85.

We also had a postsecondary institute that Deb Culley headed up when she was working for state ed. She brought specialists in, including parents and secondary and postsecondary educators, and students from all over the state to get input. We have a report on that. We are implementing components on that and meet on a regular basis with postsecondary people.

DR. STODDEN: Have you noticed an increase in admissions?

MS. LAURIA: We have had an increase over the years in admissions to postsecondary. We are looking at getting that information and process out to more people. We are looking at once a student is in a postsecondary institution--how do you fund support services for those individuals, how do you provide those services, and how do you get enough people with disabilities on the college campuses to educate? Then, again, the other piece you are looking at is how do you transition them to employment? You were talking about the mom who helps the student, but then I raise the question to you, that's all well and good, but what happens when he goes to his job and she is not going to be able to do that.

DR. STODDEN: Right. No, it's not a –

MS. LAURIA: Teach independence; that's a critical piece.

DR. STODDEN: Right.

MS. LAURIA: I don't know if you've looked at SCAN skills or not. We've been working on training teachers to pull the SCAN skills into postsecondary IEPs because it's not just self-advocacy, they need other skill functions, the same skills as their non-disabled peers. It's a combination of things.

DR. STODDEN: Yeah, certainly they need to be able to address the general ed. curriculum requirements.

MS. LAURIA: I would be glad to share with you some of what we are doing or talk if you want to give me a call at any time.

DR. STODDEN: Sure. I would love to, because one of the things we do is to try to network information on good things that are happening around the country. So that would be great.

MS. LAURIA: All the things we are doing seem to tie in with what you are doing.

DR. STODDEN: Certainly. Before I go, I will give you my e-mail address, and any of you that would like to share things you are doing or if you have further questions, I would be happy to follow up.

MS. ZEPUHAR: This is Mary Ellen Zepuhar from West Virginia University. Before I was here, I served as the school-to-work director. I was on a tech. prep. consortium that represented about eight counties in East and West Virginia. I served as the disabilities coordinator. We were able to provide services and to do a little bit of case management for students who were already in a two-year program. We had trouble getting the rehab. counselors to participate. They didn't come to our meetings, and we have had a hard time historically getting rehab. counselors to share files on students for confidentiality reasons. It's worked very well at the two-year level and the vocational school level. I think this is due to the fact that the students that we had were living and going to school in the local community. Many of these people may have been familiar with the students. I think when you run into some really significant problems is when a student who lives in West Virginia wants to go to school in Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Minnesota, and then that's where the nightmare begins in trying to coordinate services through their local rehab. counselor or whoever was providing services before, and then trying to locate those services in a new area. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how we can deal with those kinds of problems?

DR. STODDEN: Yeah. When you are looking at across-state-lines coordinator services, obviously you almost have to start over every time, or even across communities if kids move from one end of the state to another. Either the student needs to have the skills to take his or her case along or someone needs to advocate, which is usually the parent in most cases for students that do go out of state.

MS. ZEPUHAR: I would concur with you. You mentioned that students were unprepared to advocate for themselves. We did a career day one time and had a roundtable discussion, and I was shocked to find out that when the question was asked, when you go on to college or when you go on to employment after high school, what is it that you need to tell your employer, what do you need in order to perform the job or to be successful in the classroom in another level? It just surprised me, even the most articulate of the students involved could not articulate their needs. I think that's because they had always been accommodated for and they had gotten to that point where they didn't realize those were accommodations anymore.

DR. STODDEN: Yeah. Well, I think given the IDEA requirements in a secondary school, kids are not, even through the self-determination efforts that have occurred, kids are not encouraged to self-discover to figure out their disability. They are definitely not encouraged to figure out the needs that go with their disability and then to describe them to somebody.

MS. ZEPUHAR: Right. Exactly.

DR. STODDEN: Then those appear to be the critical skills that are required, once you leave the door of the secondary school, whether you are going to an employer or postsecondary education. It's very much required in postsecondary ed. where you have to describe that to different people in different contexts to an instructor, to a disability support coordinator, an admissions counselor--all people with their own objectives and ends and needs themselves. It's a big assignment to be able to develop this. It almost appears like secondary ed. has not taken this on at all in any way.

MS. SWORD: This is Carrie Sword at the University of Minnesota. I just wanted to make a comment about the students moving from state to state that in my experience in vocational rehabilitation, I had several students make such a move. There needs to be planning done in terms of research about what benefits are available in the community that the student is moving to before the student moves. We used to have some students who would have an open case in Nebraska and they would move to a different state and we would still be able to handle their cases. That worked out fine. Some students really needed to have their cases opened in the state where they were moving to. All the VR agencies are different in every state. The benefits are different as well. That's something that should be checked out. It would be great if someone would develop a protocol for doing that kind of research, but I suppose it would be so individualized that you couldn't just say that every student should do this, you know, 10 steps.

DR. STODDEN: Yeah. I know people at the University of Washington who have been working on a protocol or a structure for parents. They are not doing the VR agency and, you know, other health benefits and things like that. They are looking at different types of postsecondary institutions and categorizing them to make that information available through a linked website. That's a start on what you are talking about.

DR. JOHNSON: We have time for one more question and then we are going to let Bob give his e-mail address and other contact information here. Anybody else?

MS. IZZO: Bob, I have a question. This is Margo Izzo out of Ohio State. How realistic is it that students are able to gain all the academic requirements to get into college, learn the self-advocacy, learn the self-determination skills, and pass the proficiency tests in four years? I am wondering, do you know of any examples where they extend to the high school four years to include an additional year and it's not viewed as a failure? The students just move a little more slowly through the high school curricula. If it takes twice as long to get through a college curriculum, I would think that same student would benefit from spending an additional year in a high school curricula. Then, perhaps they would be better prepared to go to college and not drop out as quickly as a student who, you know, has struggled to get all the Carnegie unit requirements needed to get into college, but the student misses some of those critical self-advocacy and self-determination skills. Are you aware of any models that have extended that high school curricula?

DR. STODDEN: Well, I know people working with the 18 to 21 year old projects are playing with that a little bit.

MS. IZZO: We are, however, those are non-college bound youth for the most part.

DR. STODDEN: Right.

MS. IZZO: Or youth who really have not done an academic track. They have done a vocational track.

DR. STODDEN: Right.

MS. IZZO: Work experience track.

DR. STODDEN: Well, you know, if they try to take that model, a major problem is that the kids that are postsecondary bound want to move out of the special ed. realm.

MS. IZZO: I know they do.

DR. STODDEN: And they want to graduate with their class at least with some semblance of that.

DR. JOHNSON: In Minnesota we have a system called Transitional Plus Programs. Even for kids with mild disabilities, they are looking at that extended period letting them go through the motion of the graduation but allowing them to participate in postsecondary ed. programs under the auspices of their IEP following what would be their 12th year in high school. Typically not as a function of being in the high school, but rather a storefront operation somewhere in the community so they detach from school and focus on postsecondary goals.

DR. STODDEN: Conceptually a real nice model is that the student graduates but the LEA maintains continuous supports and services in postsecondary education. I don't think, you know, very few states want to approach that given the cost factors and things like that.

MS. STORMS: This is Jane Storms. IDEA explicitly says that if students receive regular diplomas, then they are no longer eligible for services. I know states are working with programs, as David described, that are not actually giving a final diploma and so the student continues after the fifth or even the sixth year.

DR. JOHNSON: Yeah, you are right. Well, we have hit the tome for closure. What I would like to do, Bob, is first of all, thank you for doing this. Secondly, you were going to offer up your e-mail address.

DR. STODDEN: I will give you the website address where you can acquire a lot of the information. Contact me if you have a question or if you would like to share some things you are doing you are welcome to e-mail me. We do network with programs and we share nationally what people are doing around the country. Then we form collaborative linkages with different programs and projects around the country. My e-mail address is, stodden@hawaii.edu. If you need to call me, I will give that you number, it's 808.956.9199.

DR. JOHNSON: Anyone need that repeated? (No response)

DR. JOHNSON: Okay. Good. If you want a transcript we do transcripts for these. Carrie, did you want to provide information on the transcript status?

MS. SWORD: Sure. There should be a transcript available in another probably two months or so. If you are interested, please give me a call and I will be sure that you get one. My phone number is 612.625.7519. Do you want me to repeat it?

DR. JOHNSON: Your e-mail.

MS. SWORD: It's sword002@tc.umn.edu.

DR. JOHNSON: All right. Very good. Well, I thank everyone for participating. Again, we're looking forward to the upcoming teleconferences on new topics. If you would like to see a particular topic emerge out of this series, please contact Carrie and/or myself here at the university.

MS. FITZGERALD: Wait a minute. We didn't get a web address for Bob.

DR. STODDEN: Okay. I can give it to you. It's http://www.rrtc.hawaii.edu.

MS. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

DR. HEGENAUER: Thanks, Bob.

DR. JOHNSON: Thanks, you guys. Take care.

UNIDENTIFIED: Aloha.

DR. STODDEN: Aloha.

(End of Teleconference)


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